Waste Disposal on Noah’s Ark

Our title got your attention, didn’t it? We will not disappoint you. Look what we found today at the website of Answers in Genesis (AIG), the online creationist ministry of Ken Ham (ol’ Hambo). This is their new article: How Could Noah Fit the Animals on the Ark and Care for Them?

The author is John Woodmorappe, M.A. Geology, B.A. Biology. Here’s his biography page at AIG. We aren’t told where those degrees were awarded, or when. Wikipedia has an entry for John Woodmorappe — can there be more than one? — which says:

John Woodmorappe (born October 1954) is the pen name of of Jan Peczkis, an author who has published several articles and books with the creation science groups Answers in Genesis and the Institute for Creation Research. His main works are Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study and The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods. … Peczkis is a teacher in the Chicago Public Schools and taught science to grades four to seven at Budlong Elementary School in Chicago unti April 2006.

Quite a guy! We’ve written about his work before, for example: Life Aboard Noah’s Ark. Much of the information in Woodmorappe’s new article is mentioned in that earlier post, so we’ll skip most of it. But the Ark enthusiasts among you will want to study his article carefully. He begins by saying:

According to Scripture, Noah’s ark was a safe haven for representatives of all the kinds of air-breathing land animals and birds that God created. While it is possible that God made miraculous provisions for the daily care of these animals, it is not necessary — or required by Scripture — to appeal to miracles.

How wonderful! The whole year-long task could have been handled naturally. Woodmorappe’s article answers such questions as:

• How Did Noah Fit All the Animals on the Ark?
• What About the Dinosaurs? What did they eat?
• How Were the Animals Cared For?
• How Did the Animals Breathe?
• Didn’t the Ark-released Animals Eat Each Other?
• How Could Freshwater and Saltwater Fish Coexist in the Flood?

We’re going to let you read that information for yourselves. Your Curmudgeon will be true to the promise of our title and focus on the one question that we know is of greatest interest to all of you: What Did Noah and His Family Do with the Animal Waste? Here’s what Woodmorappe says, with bold font added by us for emphasis:

As much as 12 U.S. tons (11 m. tons) of animal waste may have been produced daily.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! Among the legendary twelve labours of Hercules was cleaning out the Augean stables. Wikipedia says: “These stables had not been cleaned in over 30 years, and over 1,000 cattle lived there.” Can your Curmudgeon compare Noah’s task to the one given to Hercules? Yes, because of our specialized talents, we are equal to the challenge.

Elsewhere in his article, Woodmorappe estimates that: “there were no more than 16,000 land animals and birds on the ark.” Assuming those were mostly land animals (how many “bird kinds” could there be?) then in the one year the Ark was afloat, the quantity of waste was almost 16 times what would have accumulated in the Augean stables in a year. The poop-production in two Ark-years would be roughly equal to the 30 years of accumulation that confronted Hercules in the Augean stables. But the Ark was afloat for only one year, which means that mucking out the Ark was only half as burdensome as the job assigned to Hercules. No problem! But Hercules had to divert two rivers to clean out the stables. How did Noah handle the job? Woodmorappe says:

Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in rustic henhouses. In this regard, there could have been slatted floors, and animals could have trampled their waste into the pits below. Small animals, such as birds, could have multiple levels in their enclosures, and waste could have simply accumulated at the bottom of each.

See? Nothing to it. Let’s read on:

Alternatively, sloped floors in animal enclosures would have allowed the waste to flow into large central gutters and then into collection pits, allowing gravity to do most of the work. Noah’s family could have then dumped this overboard without an excessive expenditure of manpower.

Yes — hoisting a mere 12 tons of manure out of the collection pits in the bowels of the Ark every day was a simple task. Mrs. Noah could have handled it herself. But there were other problems associated with the animal waste. To present this coherently, we’re excerpting Woodmorappe’s paragraphs out of sequence:

The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the ark, which would have allowed manure gases to be constantly released. Second, methane, which is half the density of air, would quickly find its way out of the window of the ark. There is no reason to believe that the levels of these gases within the ark would have remotely approached hazardous levels.

Right — no problem. The Ark’s single window would have been more than sufficient for ventilation. The ambiance was probably quite pleasant. He continues:

The problem of manure odor may, at first thought, seem insurmountable. But we must remember that throughout most of human history, humans lived together with their farm animals. Barns, separate from human living quarters, are a relatively recent development.

Noah and his family probably thought the Ark’s conditions were entirely agreeable — it may have seemed cozy! The section on Ark sanitation ends with this:

While the voyage of the ark may not have been comfortable or easy, it was certainly doable, even under such unprecedented circumstances.

It seems reasonable to us! We’re grateful to Woodmorappe. He has explained away what had been our biggest objection to the tale of Noah’s Ark.

See also: Waste Disposal on Noah’s Ark — Solved!

Copyright © 2013. The Sensuous Curmudgeon. All rights reserved.

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41 responses to “Waste Disposal on Noah’s Ark

  1. Lewis Thomasonn

    Gee all of this time I thought that the same magic that got the animals from all over the world was used by god to fix it so the animals didn’t poop,how very disappointing.

  2. It is incredible to me how much time and energy folks put into detailing explanations for something that did not happen. Of course, the ICR folks make it clear that Noah’s flood was an historical event whereas Gilgamesh was simply myth: http://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/

  3. For basic respiratory health, 4 air changes per hour in winter and 15 to 30 air changes per hour in summer are considered minimum. If there was only one exit vent, the single window, the gale that would have had to blast through it, even in winter, would have made standing in front of the window dangerous — if there were other vents to allow fresh air to come in. Without intake vents, there would have been minimal air movement, no matter how the boat was tossed about.

  4. Sounds like a lot of BS to me.

  5. “there were no more than 16,000 land animals and birds on the ark.”
    Given the gazillions of species inhabiting the Earth nowadays we must conclude that John Woodmocrap accepts evolution after all – hyper-speedy non-Darwinian evolution.
    Now what does Ol’ Hambo say? Does he have anything to say?

    “allowing gravity to do most of the work”
    Archimedes’ law anyone? Meaning the s**t will end beneath the watersurface? Well, let me say the work would have kept the family Noah in good shape.

  6. Hence, I suppose, the term “poop deck”?

  7. A lovely sentence in an article about the Ark… “Many challenges to the reliability of the biblical account of Noah’s ark, based on animals’ feeding requirements, are steeped in mythology.

  8. Graham Hughes

    Clearly if Noah was capable of single-handedly building a ship capable of housing all the species of animals on the earth, then rounding up said species and stowing them on board (though doubtless he was a bit miffed when he realised he’d forgotten the unicorns) along with sufficient food to keep them going for the best part of six weeks, waste disposal would scarcely have represented a problem for him. Obviously the waste was discharged by gravity through holes in the bottom of the ship. That is as feasible as any of the rest of the story, so why not?

  9. Found the following on something called ‘Rate my Teacher’

    mr pechkis you are my love !!! I LOVE YOU . I WANTTO MERRY YOU.

    kEEP KICKING STUDENT OUT

    You an alright teacher…

    This is the sort of dumb ignorance AiG wants all kids to aspire to.

  10. I thought that name looked familiar; check out talkorigins.org for 10 pages of hits on a search for his name. He’s a long time YEC who thinks he can justify quantitatively the myths in the babble.

  11. Richard Olson

    God prevented a horrible explosion that would have drowned all and sundry by waiting to acquaint humans with tobacco smoking until after Israelites sailed in their boats to inhabit the Americas so somebody would be present to be named “Indians” later by Columbus, and play a vital role in both Mormon, and Christian Dominion, theology. I’m unclear what god likes about Mormonism, exactly.

    If not for that (delaying the discovery of tobacco use), who is to say that one evening on the Ark, following a relaxing meal, Noah and sons (Mrs. Noah & daughters — or whoever else the women were who we all descend directly from, and I know, this is a disturbing incestuous notion to think about, but were you there? No, you weren’t, and it IS in the bible, so it happened) — where was I, oh yeah, Noah and his boys just might have sent the ladies away for a little manly talk and postprandial brandy and cigars and all of a sudden BLOOEY! a massive methane explosion kills all, leaving a lifeless planet, except for the vegetables and fruit and other plants that sprang up when the flood receded. And bugs, probably. Mosquitos for sure. Maybe cockroaches.

  12. Quote from Wikipedia: “Peczkis is a teacher in the Chicago Public Schools and taught science to grades four to seven at Budlong Elementary School in Chicago UNTI [sic!] April 2006.”

    “Unti”? Could it be that the Curmudgeon had missed out on an L? Had to check Wikipedia … Nope, the L was missing there as well. Curmy is off the hook.

    But now I’ve fixed it at Wikipedia. Ah … how satisfying to contribute to the refinement of a great compendium of human knowledge!

    I wonder if Peczkis, aka Woodmorappe, feels he can say the same.

  13. >”The danger of toxic or explosive manure gases, such as methane, would be alleviated by the constant movement of the ark …”

    Ah, so now the Ark is moving under its own power? It gets better and better!

    I am considering some BOTE calculations of just how much weight and volume must have been dedicate to food storage, but I bet someone else has done it already. Google will know …

  14. Duh, I found Woodmorappe, of course. But some of his assumptions seem rather on the low side.

  15. There is one thing we can know positivity about old Woody…This idiot NEVER did a lick of farm work in his life!! I’ve shoveled my share of schite and it is VERY hard work and that was 3 people and only 100 cows. And 12 tons is 12 tons no matter where it goes on the ship, to lift it over the rail is still 36tons of work. Apologetics the xtian word for stupid!

  16. H.K. Fauskanger says: “Curmy is off the hook.”

    That’s twice today I’ve posted typos that weren’t mine — the first was in the letter-to-the-editor this morning.

  17. L.Long says: “I’ve shoveled my share of schite and it is VERY hard work”

    My two Dobermans give me plenty to do. And I’ve had two Dobermans (not the same two, of course) for 20 years. If I add it all up … no, it’s best not to think of it.

  18. Lordy, lordy, let’s hope some mirthmaker on the Ark didn’t try to light a fart!

  19. it is you who cannot think out of the box , the animals could have been in a state of hibernation , or eggs , also the dinosaurs were not in the ark , you are barking up the wrong  tree , even the leaders of evolution  have removed the pillars themselves  as impossible to work .. evolution  has almost crumbled under its own weight , it is the greatest hoax of the 19-20th century 

    ________________________________

  20. The second personally-burned-by-creationists experience in my life involved Peczkis/Woodmorappe & his then-advisor at Cedarville (Creationist) University, John Whitmore. Peczkis contacted me & expressed interest in my research on hardgrounds and hardground fossil communities in the Ordovician of the Cincinnati, Ohio area. I was delighted to show him & his advisor around, pointing out hardgrounds and the associated fossils for observation, photography, and/or collection. I spent a half-day in the field with them at Caesar Creek spillway & nearby Flat Fork in Warren County, southwestern Ohio. Whitmore commented that he’d never before learned more geology in one day (he was & still is a “university”-level “geology” professor!).

    Months later, an article appeared in a young-earth creationist “journal”, written by Peczkis, trashing and bad-mouthing my “evolutionist” hardground and hardground fossil communities research. I had been completely duped! As the Golden Crocoduck award points out, creationists have to lie to get their ideas out there. So true. So true. Needless to say, I was incensed. Being an educator, I’m more than happy to teach in the classroom or in the field. But being an unwitting assistant of YECs, helping them conduct atrocity-scale bashing of science, upset me to the core. On the other hand, I felt a little flattered – you have to “be someone” to be a target of these people.

    The perverse, Christian creationist cult followers, who claim to treasure morals, are chronic liars and are unashamedly dishonest. We all know this. This is one more specific piece of evidence demonstrating that (I have photos of us in the field that day!).

    I just wanted to get this out there, off my chest. It was many years ago (early- to mid-2000s, I recall?), but the memory still irritates.

  21. Richard Olson

    Hold on for just a 6 thousand-year second there, ruf. Didn’t climate change blow right on by evolution recently as the greatest hoax ever?

    You could change a lot of minds about evolution, though, mine included, if you list with which “leaders of evolution” removed what “impossible to work …. pillars themselves” — I missed that breaking news, whenever it broke. List the so-called pillars you refer to, also, please, while you’re at it.

  22. It is mind boggling, the extent of the rationalizations it takes to keep a boat full of $hit afloat. I keep thinking about the so called sloped floors leading to gutters that supposedly directed waste off the ship somehow…that would be some awfully watered down poop on the poop deck. I am picturing the blob moving its way along the gutters. Gravity as I recall only works in one direction, down, so even if this scenario was plausible, well it isn’t. Sooner or later your poop slurry will be below the water line. Unless…wait a minute Noah must have invented the conveyor belt! It was animal driven! ..and poop had magical properties at the time that allowed it to flow freely, and…ventilation was not an issue because of the magic window! It’s like letting some first grade kids loose with their imaginations, and then they expect to be taken seriously. Laughable, if it weren’t so screwed up.

  23. Charles Deetz ;)

    So 35,000 animals with 24,000 pounds of poop spread over 100,000 square feet of decking every day. Forget getting it out of the ark, that is a lot of floor space to shovel. The ark was said to be designed to be pretty much a large flat warehouse, I don’t see how a sloped floor would have been practical as large as it was. The bible story was much better before they started meddling with making it realistic.

  24. The amusing irony here is how one is supposed to take the whole Noah’s Ark & Supreme Skydaddy story on faith, yet True Believers©™ like Peczkis/Woodmorappe expend enormous amounts of energy attempting to show its feasibility and thereby to anchor it in observable reality. Their underlying message is then that, in actual fact, faith alone isn’t quite enough.

  25. Try the RationalWiki.org article, “Caring for the animals in Noah’s Ark”

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Caring_for_the_animals_in_Noah%27s_ark

  26. @James St. John: Thanks for sharing the story. If I may ask, what was the other time?

    @ruffus: If evolution continues to crumble at its current rate, then we can expect continued advances in biology and medicine within our lifetimes. Ain’t that cool!

  27. The Ark had three decks. How did they see down there with the ark rocking and a rolling. Fear note, Woody has the answer. In his Feasibility Study he said they used mirrors with light coming from one small 17 inch window. What a guy. He can answer all your questions and criticism. Perhaps, that should be what a stupid guy.

  28. Christine Janis

    “the animals could have been in a state of hibernation , or eggs , ”

    Elephant eggs. Now, there’s an idea —-

  29. @Tomato Addict: What was the other time?

    I & many other paleontologists were duped into attending what was being publicized as a Cambrian Explosion paleontology conference in Yunnan, China back in 1999. The organizers & participants included Dishonesty Institute folks. If you read the original Wedge document, there’s a reference to a gentleman named Chien and Chinese Chengjiang fossils. This conference was intended to be the discoveroid’s “foot in the door” into the scientific literature. They wanted real paleontologists to submit article versions of their conference talks for publication in a conference proceedings volume (that’s typical of scientific conferences). But, the creationists would also submit their articles, and they would be published, side-by-side, with real scientists’ works. Then they could claim “See? We do real science too!” Jonathan Wells was there, Chien was there, Paul Nelson was there, Marcus Ross was there, plus several other YEC/IDC folks.

    Near the end of the conference, some of the real paleontologists were getting wind of what was really going on. There was a “discussion”, during which it was made clear to the creationists that none of the paleontologists were going to submit their articles to any proceedings volume resulting from this conference. The creationists were incensed, but in a subdued way.

    The only thing they got was the conference abstracts booklet with their “work” alongside real abstracts of real research on real fossils. That abstracts booklet is a bibliographic rarity. I donated a copy to Ohio State University’s geology library, so it is now listed by WorldCat/OCLC. The conference was called “Origins of Animal Body Plans and Their Fossil Records”. I made heads-up notations in the margins alongside each creationist’s abstract of the donated copy, so as to not fool future readers.

    In a way, I’m grateful to the Dishonesty Institute – it was my 1st China visit. I got to hear some great talks on wonderful & rare fossils, I got to visit world-class fossiliferous localities, and I got to collect & keep fossils. The Chinese treated us like emperors – they were exceedingly polite and courteous, and the cost of the trip was surprisingly reasonable.

    But I was duped. So were some pretty high-profile names in Cambrian paleontology.

  30. James St. John, stories such as yours, though anecdotal, deserve to reach a much wider audience if for no other reason than to expose the scurrilous subterfuges the Discorrhoids are prepared to orchestrate in pursuit of their agenda. Part of the problem is that too many professional scientists are too polite (or uninterested) to denounce baloney vocally, probably because they assume implicitly that the public at large is capable of separating the evidentiary chaff from grain unassisted. Following the rigours of the scientific method isn’t easy. It takes unflagging vigilance and discipline, both of which are in short supply when glib answers and soundbites are the order of the day. In short, several more Dawkinses, Meyerses, Pigliuccis and Coynes are needed, despite most scientists’ abhorrence for controversy and tumult.

  31. @James St. John: I had read about that event previously, but your first hand account fills in some of the details, especially about the disappointment of the creationists. I’m happy you could disappoint them. 😉
    Thanks (again!) for sharing.

  32. Chapter 4 in “Creatinism’s Trojan Horse” by Barbara Forest/Paul Gross covers the Chien episode in depth if anyone wishes to read further on creationist’s efforts regarding this event to discredit science.

  33. Richard Olson

    Uh-oh. This coming blockbuster has a big name star (Russel Crowe), and I will be very surprised if the tale is not related as a True Story. The title?

    Noah’s Ark.

    From a press release I just now came across when I opened Yahoo for a search:

    Multiple sources say that with test screenings of various versions producing worrisome results, Aronofsky and Paramount have been at odds over the version of Noah that is set for release March 28. It’s not clear whether Aronofsky — whose most recent film, 2010’s Black Swan, grossed $329 million worldwide and won an Oscar for star Natalie Portman — has held on to his right to final cut. Aronofsky and his reps did not respond to requests for comment, but Paramount vice chairman Rob Moore says the film, which stars Russell Crowe as the seafarer, is going through a “normal preview process” and the result will be “one version of the movie that Darren is overseeing.”

  34. Christine Janis

    “If you read the original Wedge document, there’s a reference to a gentleman named Chien and Chinese Chengjiang fossils. ”

    Oh, so that’s the source of those quotes about how in the US you can criticise the government but not Darwin, while in China it’s the other way around. (I always thought that as a pretty damning comment on the Chinese government, but that isn’t how the quote is used.)

    Also, Chien saying something about the tree of life being upside down, as phyla come first. Of course, if you think about it, given that Linneaus did a classification on extant animals ordering them back essentially through time, it could hardly be any other way. You obviously can’t have phyla before species. If you think about it, the ordering *has* to the the highest ranks appearing first.

  35. Reality Based Steve

    Noah could have accomplished this in several ways. One possibility would be to allow the waste to accumulate below the animals, much as we see in rustic henhouses. In this regard, there could have been slatted floors, and animals could have trampled their waste into the pits below. Small animals, such as birds, could have multiple levels in their enclosures, and waste could have simply accumulated at the bottom of each.

    Since I’ve alway heard it explained that the ark had multiple levels to hold all the animals, wouldn’t that really be a horrible experience to be on a lower deck as the poop rained down below around you from the upper decks. I guess it was somebody on the lowest deck level that coined the phrase “Shyte rolls down hill”

    RBS

  36. As far as the idea of having a sloped floor underneath the cages, down which the poop is supposed to “roll”:

    In China, many toilets (outside, say, Beijing) are of the “ramp” type, basically a ramp with footrests on either side, with the ramp leading down to a central gutter between the men’s room and the ladies’ room. The poop does not roll. It must be flushed with water from a bucket.

    Jonathan Sarfati of Creation Ministries International believes that flushing the poop down a ramp will solve the problem easily:

    Sarfati, 1997: “Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (plenty of water around!)…” [Jonathan Sarfati, “How Did All the Animals Fit on Noah’s Ark?”, Creation 19(2):16–19, March 1997]

    This brilliant insight is printed on Creation.com’s website in extra-large letters, so Sarfati is quite proud of this “solution.” Let’s explore that.

    To flush the poop, Noah and family must transport huge amounts of water to do the flushing; and then they we will up with a huge slurry of poop and water at the lower parts of the Ark, and all the slurry must be carried up to the deck and thrown overboard. Since Woodmorappe estimates that 12 tons of solid waste will be produced per day, we can expect that more than that in water will be needed for flushing. Let’s double those 12 tons.

    Thus, each day Noah and his family would need to tote 24 tons, that’s 48,000 pounds of wet poop slurry from the Ark up to the deck to throw it over board. For 8 people, that’s 6,000 pounds per day. If they carry 60 pounds per load, that’s 100 trips per day, up and down the ladder carrying 60 pounds of wet poop slurry as the Ark is struck by one tsunami after another, also while Earth is struck by all the major meteor and comet impacts of pre-history, which create tsunamis, and as all the supervolcanoes of pre-history (Siberian traps, Deccan Traps, Yellowstone Caldera, etc.) occur within the course of the one year Flood. Noah, who was 600 years old when the Flood started, and all of his family members would need to make one trip every 6 minutes up and down the ladder, if he worked 10 hours a day just on that.

    Then there’s all the water from pee. Let’s estimate that by first considering average animal size.

    Although creationists often say that the average animal on the Ark would be the size of a “sheep”, Woodmorappe’s numbers don’t show that. At this dead link, previously at Theology Web, commenter “Ardipithecus” in 2003 ran the numbers from Woodmorappe’s chart on animals sizes in his Ark book, and concluded:

    Ardipithecus, 2003: “As you can see, the average size of animal aboard the ark, according to the numbers Woodmorappe himself specifies, is 347 kilograms. [Theology Web discussion, 2003, dead link]

    He estimates this as the size of a small riding horse, not a sheep.

    Ardipithecus was opposed by notoriously super-obnoxious YEC Jonathan Sarfati, who responded at Theology Web under the pseudonym “Socratism”:

    Jonathan Sarfati/”Socratism”, 2003: “It does appear than your calculations are in at least the right ballpark.” [Theology Web discussion, 2003, dead link]

    But Sarfati objects that these are numbers for adult animals, while Woodmorappe said he was considering “juveniles”. I’ll ignore that because the Bible explicitly says that each male animal was brought “with his mate”, and you can’t have a mate until you’re sexually mature, so using babies or immature animals is cheating.

    How much water would an animal the size of a small horse drink, and thus pee, per day?

    Well, at RationalWiki they have an article on caring for the animals on Noah’s Ark, and they say “A goat requires more than two gallons of water per day to survive.” A goat is much smaller than a small horse, but I’ll assume the animals on the Ark are all unhealthy– let’ say each animal needs, on average, just one gallon per day.

    Woodmorappe is using a number of 16,000 animals on the Ark (he may regret that), so we estimate that all the animals will drink, and pee, 16,000 gallons per day.

    OK, the animals would sweat out some of that water– indeed, all their sweat would add to the super-dank environment of the ship’s hold– but the windows on Noah’s Ark were tiny and closed most of the time, so most evaporated sweat would condense on the walls and drip down to the bilge.

    Now a gallon weighs 3.79 kilograms or 8.35 pounds, which for 16,000 animals would be 133,600 pounds per day. Adding that to the poop-flush water (48,000 pounds) would be 181,600 pounds per day, mostly liquid, to be carried up and thrown over the side of the boat. That’s 22,700 pounds per person, or 378 trips, that is, one trip carrying 60 pounds every 95 seconds for a 10 hour work day.

    How much space would all that water take up, before it was drunk? We assume that the animals drank rainwater for the first 40 days of the flood when it rained, so for the remaining 336 days they must have drunk fresh water stored on the Ark. That’s 1 gallon per day * 16,000 animals * 336 days = 5,376,000 gallons of stored water initially. The volume of that much water would be 718,667 cubic feet (= 20,350.4 cubic meters). Creationist Jonathan Sarfati gives the total volume of the Ark as “43,500 m^3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet”.

    Thus, initially 47% of the volume of Noah’s Ark would consist of stored fresh water. This would eventually all turn to urine and need to be carried up and thrown overboard.

  37. Sensh, I wrote a comment with many links. Please moderate when you have time.

  38. James St. John, I believe that the article of John Woodmorappe/Peczkis that you describe is this one, from 2004:

    John Woodmorappe and John Whitmore. “Field study of purported hardgrounds of the Cincinnatian” Journal of Creation vol. 18, no. 3 (Dec. 2004): 82-92.

    What a gentleman– after you school him all day, he says the hardgrounds you show him are “purported.”

    Nowhere in the article, which describes how they did their “fieldwork” in detail, does Woodmorappe or Whitmore describe how James St. John schooled them. Instead, he’s portrayed as a deceiver.

    Here’s a prime snippet showing Woodmorappe’s treatment of James St. John, who schooled him on basic paleontology:

    Woodmorappe and Whitmore, 2004: “The Ashgillian Liberty and Whitewater Formations at the Caesar’s Creek Spillway… south-west Ohio, the site of this field investigation, are assigned to the highstand part of the fourth depositional sequence.6 The Spillway itself is located approximately 50 miles (80 km) NNE of the Answers in Genesis USA headquarters in Petersburg, Kentucky. Over a dozen hardground horizons are claimed to have been located at the Spillway itself by previous investigators,[ref. 7]

    Claimed to have been located“, he writes– the person he cites is James St. John, as reference 7 is “St. John, J.M. and Wilson, M.A., Hardground development and its influence on sedimentation in the Richmond Group (Upper Ordovician) at Caesar Creek Emergency Spillway, Warren County, Ohio, Geological Society of America Abstracts with Programs 23:62, 1991.”

  39. Diogenes says: “Sensh, I wrote a comment with many links. Please moderate when you have time.”

    It’s the least I can do for this blog’s newly-discovered expert on poop-ology.

  40. “this blog’s newly-discovered expert on poop-ology.”

    You know, sometimes when I have a few drinks in me, I tell stories about the different kinds of Chinese toilets.

    But Tibetan toilets– those horrors, I’m taking with me to my grave.