Ken Ham’s Ark Bonds Countdown — Live Thread

Noah's Ark (by Edward Hicks, 1846)

Noah’s Ark (by Edward Hicks, 1846)

The fate of the unrated municipal bonds being issued to finance the proposed Ark Encounter project, which will be operated by a company controlled by Answers in Genesis (AIG), will soon be known.

At the AIG website, this portentous post recently appeared: Update from Answers in Genesis on ‘Ark Encounter’ Design and Bond Funding Attempt. Observe, dear reader, that word “Attempt” in the title. Does that suggest anything?

There’s no author indicated, but it’s unlikely that it would have been posted without the approval of Ken Ham, ol’ Hambo himself. Here’s what it says:

What: A report on what has been accomplished in the design of the Ark Encounter themed attraction, the preparation of the land, and on the effort to raise bond funding to build a full-size Ark in northern Kentucky. Future of the Ark project to be revealed.

Again, note the choice of words: “the effort to raise bond funding.” AIG’s title called it an “attempt.” Now it’s referred to as an “effort.” Here’s more:

When: The live stream, hosted by Ken Ham, president/CEO of Answers in Genesis (the builder of the Ark Encounter), will take place on Thursday, February 27, 2014, at 7 p.m. EST. Watch it live at http://www.ArkEncounter.com.

Here’s a better link: Ark Encounter. They have a blank video up there now, with a live countdown showing the hours and minutes remaining until it begins. Very exciting! That’s about 25 hours from now.

There’s not much else we can say at this time. If you have any guesses as to how the bond issue concluded, this is the place to let us know. But why speculate? We know why — it’s irresistible. Anyway, soon, all will be revealed. Stay tuned to this blog!

Copyright © 2014. The Sensuous Curmudgeon. All rights reserved.

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85 responses to “Ken Ham’s Ark Bonds Countdown — Live Thread

  1. I think it’ll be good news for ol’ Hambo’s followers. If it were bad for Kenny, he’d let it die a quiet death.

  2. I think it’ll be bad news pitched as good news. Ham will probably blame problems with the fundraising on secular media/atheists again, and then exhort his followers to pray about donating more money…with their reward not being a measly 6% yield …but treasures in heaven!

    In the long term, they’ll be able to get some kind of Noah’s Ark park built. That ministry has enormous fundraising capability. As long as they aren’t aided by the state of Kentucky or townships with bad debt–I’ll be happy. With any luck they’ll have to downsize the project.

  3. My prediction is that they did not make the target for the project as originally planned, so they will announce that they have redesigned the project to reduce cost by cutting away almost everything but the Ark itself. They will forecast adding the eliminated features later, once the Ark attraction proves to be successful and is generating revenue. It will be a glass half full approach, and they will keep their project alive.

  4. Perhaps they will decide that Noah used the short rather than the long cubit. Millions saved right away!

  5. I predict that Ham will blame secularists and Atheists for the failure and announce That never fear……. They are going to build a much much smaller replica next to the existing creation museum and than use the remaining funds to make improvements to the creation museum.

    oh an of course he will announce the selling of DVDs showing the Bill Nye debate with a selectively edited Bill Nye and additional commentary by Ham.

  6. Stephen Kennedy

    I think it will be mixed news for the faithful. After four years Hambo has reached a point where he probably has to say something about this project. If the bond offering had been a success, I think he would just have announced triumphantly that god had blessed them with the funds needed to begin construction and not say anything about the bonds which have not been mentioned up until now on the AIG website.

    It could be that AIG got the funds and is using this post today and the countdown on their website to build dramatic effect for the announcement of ground breaking but Hambo strikes me as wanting to be seen as the kind of guy who never thought the outcome was in doubt if he had succeeded.

    There would be no need to discuss the future of the ark encounter, it is well known, if the funds had been secured. It is also interesting that in the “what” paragraph he starts off by talking about what has been accomplished in planning the “ark encounter” but finishes with the “future of the ark project” as if the ark encounter is in the past and is going to become something else in the future. I estimate that AIG has already sunk close to $20 million in this project and can not just walk away from it. They will likely announce there will be some sort of ark project but much less ambitious than the ark encounter.

    Why mention the bonds and use such words as “attempt” and “effort” to characterize the bond offering? It is possible that he could go off on a rant about the project being derailed by evolutionists, atheists, secular humanists, Deists, Catholics and blogs like this one.

  7. When wondering what a propagandist clown like Hambeaux would say, I ask myself: “How would Joseph Goebbels spin this?”

  8. Stephen Kennedy says: “It is possible that he could go off on a rant about the project being derailed by evolutionists, atheists, secular humanists, Deists, Catholics and blogs like this one.”

    I don’t like to brag, but my influence over financial markets is indeed awesome.

  9. I missed it. What happened?

  10. VAScienceLover

    I agree with most of the posters here. It will be “glass half full” kind of announcement – “unfortunately due the evil secularists/evolutionists fighting us every step of the way the project will not p.roceed as originally planned, but we will be building an Ark, albeit smaller and in a different location, praise Jebus!” All I care about is that Hamster and the Ark are no longer eligible for the tax incentives and that no further state money goes towards it furthers. If the fools want to pay for it themselves, then they can build whatever they want.

  11. @Waldteufel: would you think Ol’ Hambo is familiar with Goebbels’ excellent speech adrressing the Stalingrad disaster? If he is going to pull off such a thing I can’t help admiring him.

    http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb36.htm

  12. Ceteris Paribus

    The “Ark Park” is separable into two words, “Ark” and “Park” Building the full scale wooden ark on the plan of the table top mock-up model would seem to be an extremely challenging project even for a competent contractor. And we are talking about getting it built in Kentucky.

    To start with, nearly every board and beam will require individual 3 dimensional cutting and fitting to produce the curved shape of the hull. And that becomes more complicated because this wooden structure is not merely an ark, but a commercial space intended to be occupied by hundreds, possibly thousands, of people at the same time.

    Which dictates that to meet the fire resistance safety requirements for that kind of occupancy, heavy timbers much larger than needed for a sea going cargo ship will likely be required. The structural engineers alone are going to be charging pretty hefty fees just to design the details of connections for a large timber ark which has precious few right angle connections.

    So, my Magic 8 Ball says “The Signs Point To” any bond money going for just the Park part of the Ark Park . That will get AIG the package of free goodies promised by the citizens of Kentucky. And with the freeway delivering boatload of happy True-Believer™ patrons visiting his gift shop, Ken gets a couple of years breathing time to study up on the Oral Roberts method of fund raising for the rest of his vision.

  13. Only 21 hours remaining. Oooooooooh, the tension is unbearable!

  14. Related to the Nye/Ham debate I just ran across this article:

    You Share 98.7 Percent of Your DNA With This Sex-Obsessed Ape

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/02/evolution-creationism-bonobos-neanderthals-denisovans-chromosome-two

  15. VAScienceLover

    All I care about is that Hamster and the Ark are no longer eligible for the tax incentives and that no further state money goes towards it furthers. If the fools want to pay for it themselves, then they can build whatever they want.

    Hear, hear!

    The rubes would seem to have forgotten the grand old American tradition of Fundagelical Fraudsters like Bakker and Falwell and are probably due for a fresh fleecing by an accomplished scamster pour encourager les autres.

  16. A little more than 12 hours to go. Oooooooooh, I haven’t been this excited since Armstrong landed on the Moon. Wait — that was a hoax, wasn’t it? It’s all so confusing. That’s why I’m grateful to ol’ Hambo for telling me what I can and can’t believe.

  17. It will not be an Ark Park; but rather, an ark park. A rowboat with gerbils in the Creation Museum parking lot.

  18. It is good to see that our Curmudgeon does not fall for every piece of pop-culture mythology. Men on the moon, indeed! Men supposedly descended from apes, at that! Who can believe such nonsense? Now go straight to Answers in Genesis and be enlightened!

  19. I’ve been wondering that, judging for what Mike Zovath said, about how it took 10 years to fund the much less expensive Creation Museum but how after they broke ground donations poured in, maybe they will try to build the Ark Park with what few money they got hoping that it will attract more donations. Of course they would risk leaving the Ark Encounter in a completely unfinished state.

  20. I found one story in an un-named Gannett newspaper in northern Kentucky. Other than describing the bonds and the tax goodies local government will be showering on the project, it doesn’t say anything other than the “news” that Hambo will be making his announcement this evening: Update on delayed Ark Park coming Thursday.

  21. The newspaper website is run by the Cincinnati Enquirer. They have been favorable towards Ham all along.

  22. I’ve no idea how municipal bonds are normally run in the US, but am assuming (quite possibly wrongly) that the funds raised so far are locked in some sort of administered escrow account–that is, that the money is in tact if a refund is required?

    But–again, an unevidence assumption on my part–wouldn’t this escrow account be interest bearing? In which case, in the event of a refund to the ‘investors’, does Ham get to pocket the interest earned during his fund-raising jamboree (or is it a hamboree)?

  23. “Wait — that was a hoax, wasn’t it?”
    Of course Armstrong on the Moon was a hoax. What else can it be? The Moon itself is a hoax!

    http://www.revisionism.nl/Moon/The-Mad-Revisionist.htm

  24. Every computer in Appalachia, and in Louisiana too, is fixed on ol’ Hambo’s website, waiting for the news. Only five and a half hours to go …

  25. Probably blame the damn atheists for not being able to sucker people into donating to this worthless project.

  26. Four and a half hours to go! Surely the world has not known such sombre anticipation since Noah himself was sitting inside the Ark, waiting for the deluge to begin!

  27. sub

  28. I. Can’t. Wait.
    Shuttering with anticipation.
    Don’t remember when I’ve been this anxious.

  29. Three more hours! Ooooooh, I’m going to collapse on the fainting couch again …

  30. …most exciting. I tingle.

  31. Stephen Kennedy

    From looking at the AIG website it appears that they have sold six “charter lifetime boarding passes” ($3,000 apiece) for the ark encounter just today. That is more than they usually sell in a month. It seems that at least some of Hambo’s followers are expecting him to set a date when the ark encounter will be finished and they can use their boarding passes.

  32. Ten minutes! Only ten minutes to go! Everybody’s pulse is thundering across the entire Western world. The countdown continues! All systems are go! In ten minutes we will learn the answer to the overarking …. ehr, overarching question that will define the 21st century: IS THE ARK COMING OR NOT? To ark or not to ark?

  33. It’s starting!

  34. He just said “the funding is in place — for phase one.”

  35. ROWRBAZZLE!

  36. Now they are ripping on atheists and secular bloggers for attempting to disrupt the funding process.

  37. They really have been scarred by these “bloggers” – what have you been doing to them, SC?

  38. Less than 10 minutes and he’s blaming the secularists.
    And what the heck is Phase 1? The bar near the bottom of the page still shows them $10M short.
    Arg, now the video froze! How will I survive?

  39. Holding the Line in Florida

    Great googley moogley! I gotta know! What is phase one? Till then pour me another Margarita! I’ll drink my woes away! Wasted away again in ……..

  40. “A firm date sometime in May” for ground-breaking and grand opening in the summer of 2016. Mark your calenders!

  41. He spent a lot of time denying stories in the press that museum attendance has been declining. However, in Bloomberg Reports on Ken Ham’s Ark Bonds we quoted Bloomberg Businessweek, which said:

    Attendance has declined every year since the museum opened in 2007, offering documents show.

  42. The first part was all about Christian persecution. Yep, here in America we all know about that. A church every 500 yards instead of one every 100 yards. Only 98% of legislators Christian, not 100%. Yep, I get it.

    What disgusted me most about the live feed was the pandering by the local politicians who are obviously in Ham’s pocket. The constitutional violations are obvious but they are plowing ahead. Williamsville, proud sponsors of the Pediatric Napalm Museum, if it provides concession stand jobs for a few yokels.

    Great, just great. Opening in 2016. Or not. Who knows. Hambo marches on!

  43. Stephen Kennedy

    Hambo said funding was in place to begin construction on phase one but no details of that funding were mentioned. We do not really know what the outcome of the bond issue was since it was not addressed. “The funding is in place” does not mean that the bond issue was a success. Also, Hambo did say something about the need to raise $15 million more over the next two years to place exhibits in the ark.

    The model of phase one simply shows the ark and none of the other exhibits such as the petting zoo. It looks like they have stripped it down to the bare essentials and are hoping to raise more money to furnish it while it is under construction.

    As expected, all of the difficulties they encountered were blamed on evolutionary atheist bloggers like SC.

  44. Bond Offering Succeeds for Full-Size Ark

    Under Ham’s direction, a full-scale 510-foot-long Noah’s Ark will be built as the featured attraction at the Ark Encounter. Research indicates that the Ark, located south of Cincinnati in Grant County, Kentucky will draw up to 2 million people in its first year.

    They’re claiming “success,” but it does look a bit stripped down.

  45. Stephen Kennedy said: “Hambo said funding was in place to begin construction on phase one but no details of that funding were mentioned. We do not really know what the outcome of the bond issue was since it was not addressed.”

    Hey, right! I missed that completely.

  46. Awesome.
    Phase 1: I have your money and you’ll never, ever, ever, get it back.
    Phase 2: Beg for more money and blame secularists.
    Phase 3: Photo op with shovel at ground breaking ceremony.
    Phase 4: Beg for more money and blame secularists.
    Phase 5: Hope all investors and donors are dead.

  47. I’m just curious, will this ark have a foundation? That seems a bit ironic but they can’t have the whole thing toppling over.
    I don’t know if anyone else is watching David Rives “Creation in the 21st century”. It is incredibly hard to watch especially when Eric Hovind pays him a visit. (Seems like David is going to have a revolving door for about 3 or 4 different guests) This week’s episode “Lies in Textbooks”. Eric brings up his favorite ditch the Grand Canyon, gotta be Noah’s flood. What else could account for the fact that the middle of the Grand Canyon is higher than the start and end of the Colorado?

  48. The ark won’t have a foundation, it will have a fundament. As in “fundamentalist”.

  49. They’re using the same strategy they did with the creation museum. Start building it and it’ll bring in more donations as the rubes are able to observe god’s work in progress.

    Oh well. Two years still it starts raking in ticket money at least.

  50. Tell me again, what is Ham trying to “prove” here? Disneyworld includes Cinderella’s Castle, right? It is cool to look at, but it doesn’t prove that Cinderella is a real historical person. One day. Hamboworld may include a wooden monstrosity supposed to represent Noah’s Ark, but unless they take it to sea and demonstrate that it can STAY AFLOAT FOR A FULL YEAR, it does very little to verify the Genesis account. The Ark Park as planned will only demonstrate that it is physically possible to build a rather oversized, weirdly shaped barn, and we already knew that.

  51. Can he claim that the current investment constitutes “Phase I” while continuing to raise funds on these worthless bonds, hoping that enough people will continue to contribute to this wasteful project? Is that legal? Damn atheists, interferring with this “holey” scheme!

  52. Stephen Kennedy

    AIG is claiming they can not disclose the amount of money raised through the bond offering due to ‘underwriter restrictions”. Does anybody know why underwriters do not allow their customers to disclose how much they raised from a bond offering? I can not think of a reason why Ross, Sinclaire would not allow AIG to reveal how much money they realized from the bond issue for which AIG paid nearly $2 million in underwriting fees.

  53. You can bet that building this ark will cost one holy helluva lot more than is estimated. The Amish carpenters that Ham plans on hiring will run into engineering problems that they will have no experience solving. This whole thing could wind up bankrupting Ham, AiG, and the Creation Museum. What a pity.

  54. H.K. Fauskanger: “… but unless they take it to sea and demonstrate that it can STAY AFLOAT FOR A FULL YEAR, it does very little to verify the Genesis account.”

    Good point. And you might add that it needs to be carrying thousands and thousands of animals and all the food and fresh water they will need for a year as well. And the only “fundament” it is allowed to have is a keel. Good luck with that, Hambo.

  55. I’ll bet Mr Lie just scraped together enough money, perhaps with some creative accounting, to make a start. A lot of what was said seems rather vague, and I’m sure several promises have been broken. Let’s hope this project hits many snags, and eventually leaves Mr Lie and his church of the terminally dumb broken.

  56. Be of good cheer! Every dollar some fool sends to Ham is a dollar that can’t be sent to the Disco’Tute.

    Which is not good news to our beloved Mr. Klinghoffer, who–in the immediate aftermath of Ham’s lacklustre debate performance, sagely advised the creationist faithful (my bolding):

    f I were a supporter of Ken Ham and his enterprises, Answers in Genesis and the Creation Museum, I would be rethinking my support today, considering where my time, passion, energy and perhaps my treasure as well is best invested.

    Well, we already knew full well that Klingy hasn’t a drop of shame…

  57. What will be interesting is seeing the tax forms for Answers in Genesis from this year and last year. They’ll have to report how much/what type of securities they bought–so we’ll be able to see just how much they had to buy in bonds to keep that whole thing from going under.

  58. This is in the Courier-Journal, presumably of Louisville, Kentucky: Creation Museum officials say funds in place to start building Noah’s Ark theme park:

    Mike Zovath, the Ark project coordinator, said the minimum amount was sold, which constituted most of the bonds, and AiG purchased some. They did not provide exact figures.

    As we suspected, AIG had to kick in some of its own money to get the bond sales over the required threshold.

  59. I stumbled onto this site while looking for information about AiG’s ark encounter. I’m on the opposite side of your thinking, but I do have two questions after reviewing the “Comment Rules” for the site and the comments here on this thread:
    1. If there are no insults or name-calling allowed, why so much venom and mocking of Ken Ham and insults directed at people who live in Appalachia and Louisiana? I thought the comments were supposed to be of an intellectual nature; and
    2. Why do you care if AiG is able to raise millions of dollars from private individuals to build its Ark Encounter? The Smithsonian’s National Museum for Natural History is funded by MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars and recently installed a $21 million human evolution hall. Yet Christians aren’t up in arms demanding that our tax dollars not support something that we don’t believe.

    Are you that afraid of Ken Ham’s message and free speech?

  60. “Yet Christians aren’t up in arms demanding that our tax dollars not support something that we don’t believe.”

    I believe that Believer is saying that no Christians accept evolution.

    From Ken Ham’s blog about not being up in arms about the Smithsonian’s exhibit: “The American public has largely been duped into thinking that by not mentioning God or the Bible, something like the Smithsonian is being “neutral.” But there is no neutral position; one is either for Christ or against (Luke 11:23). This museum is imposing a religion on generations of Americans: the religion of atheism. It’s the same worldview that is being thrust at generations of children in the public schools.”

    Yay, intertubes!

  61. Now, if you want to complain about something, complain about the religion of atheistic aerodynamics.

  62. @Believer. Sorry, but any adult who takes the Ark story with any kind of seriousness has significant mental deficiencies. All the problems of the Ark Story have been widely covered before. The use of “kinds” to mean some super-genus version of animals is the redefinition of the ordinary meaning of a word–the last refuge of the apologist and the scoundrel.

    Not wasting any more time on you. Sorry.

  63. Neither one of you responded to my exact questions. Instead, Lurker111 broke the rules and used a derogatory comment, describing me as someone with “significant mental deficiencies.” As someone who graduated from a public ivy college with a BA degree and runs my own business employing 50+ people, I disagree with your assessment.
    And Mark — Ken Ham is not demanding that the Smithsonian be defunded — he’s merely pointing out that the museum pushes the religion of atheism. The difference I’m pointing out is that museums espousing evolution do not anger or frighten me — I don’t mock them or hope they’ll fail. I prefer to let people view both sides and make their own decisions. Apparently you two don’t have room for dissenters. You would do well to move to Cuba or Venezuela.

  64. Believer says: “You would do well to move to Cuba or Venezuela.”

    That’s enough. Goodbye.

  65. Oh, rats, I missed the Tone Troll! I always like it how the poor persecuted Tone Trolls inflate their credentials by saying things like “I got a BA from a public ivy college” as if any of us ever heard of a “public ivy college.” What the heck is that anyway, a landscaping school?

  66. Believer should note that most people here treat Ham’s projects as a big joke. Nobody feels very “threatened” by them, and hardly anyone would dispute Ham’s right to build whatever he likes, as long as he and his followers can come up with the money themselves. I have noticed before that True Believers who stumble into a secular website may perceive comments as bitter and hateful, whereas they are actually merely amused and tinged with well-deserved sarcasm (as we see things).

    Few of us would cry to see the Creation Museum go magnificently bankrupt, since it represents a complete and utter travesty of science, but we aren’t planning to burn it down. As for the proposed theme park, I have written earlier that I actually hoped Ham would get to build his ark. Sure, it would be a Cool Thing, a sort of full-scale 3D illustration of a story that is, after all, a HUGE literary classic. And the largest wooden structure in North America would be an “attraction” in itself.

    But Ham is too modest when he calls his proposed Ark a replica. If built, it will be THE ORIGINAL!

  67. What are you guys so upset about? There are plenty of museums (like all of them) that support traditional geology, history, and evolution. Why does one guy who you riddicule as some kind of dope cause you such consternation? What are you so worried about since you possess such great knowledge about the past? If this guy is a loon he will fail and all his followers. I am sure most to them would love to transer their beliefs to nice people such as yourselves

  68. Stephen Kennedy

    @J.Augie

    Hambo causes us consternation because he is an enemy of the Enlightenment. While we see the Enlightenment as something that liberated us from the misery of the Dark Ages, Hambo and his gang, especially Terry Mortenson, see the Enlightenment as the greatest catastrophe to ever strike Western civilization and if they had the power, they would reverse the Enlightenment and take us back to an age of theocracy, ignorance and superstition.

  69. Right. Can you say parinoid. I am glad you guys are in charge or people of faith would be declared enemies of the Elightenment and the brown shirts would round them up. You should really step back and listen to yourselves.

  70. opps, meant “glad you AREN’T in charge.” You call yourselves enligthened but you live in fear and are intolerant of opposing views. What’s wrong with this picture.

  71. Stephen Kennedy

    @ J. Augie

    The reason we are protective of the Enlightenment is that before that “people of faith” were in charge and have a history stretching over the centuries of forcing their faith on everyone else. The Salem witch trials and subsequent murders by the religious authorities are a good example of what happened in America when “people of faith” were in charge.

  72. “I got a BA from a public ivy college”

    I have a BA from Purdue, a public university that has a School of Horticulture, so in a sense you could say it is a public ivy college. However…

    I’m not the “Believer” troll who took offense at “significant mental deficiencies”. Any religion that insists its “believers” close their eyes to ANY evidence that is contrary to the religion’s dogma is flawed. It tends to cause intelligent people to discount the parts of a religion that may have value to society (the Golden Rule, for example).

    I would think that thoughtful theologians would take offense at Ham’s definition of a “Christian” as only including those who blindly believe Ham’s interpretation of scripture.

  73. Stephen Kennedy corretly notes

    The Salem witch trials and subsequent murders by the religious authorities are a good example of what happened in America when “people of faith” were in charge.

    Indeed–but for a more current example, how about 9/11? The murderous thugs who flew planes into the WTC were nothing if not “people of faith”, precisely as impervious to reason or evidence if in conflict with ‘holy scripture’ as Ken Ham proclaims himself to be. And they, just like Ham, insisted that Adam and Eve, Noah’s Ark, Tower of Babel &c &c were actual historical events–and their unquestioning belief in scripture is entirely to blame for their appalling acts of mass murder.

  74. Quite so, Stephen Kennedy, but isn’t it some feat how such atrocities are always attributed to a convenient untrue Scotsman? And a very tatty one at that.

  75. @J.Augie,

    please note that this society where secularists are supposedly “in charge” is a society where Ken Ham and others like him are perfectly free to believe whatever they want and preach whatever they want.

    Was that true while religious people were in charge? Heck, is it true in Iran or Saudi-Arabia today?

    As quoted by Mark Germano above, Ham says “there is no neutral position; one is either for Christ or against (Luke 11:23).” It follows that Ham must be, even in principle, opposed to the very notion of a secular state. There can be no such thing as a religiously neutral state, according to Ham. If a state is not explicitly Christian (and Ham-style fundamentalist at that), it must be “against” Christ and so essentially Satanic in nature. Ham’s ideal state must by necessity be a theocracy that enforces fundamentalist Christianity and Bible literalism. Freedom of belief could not and would not exist.

    We are not “paranoid” here, J. Augie. We understand that Ham hardly has any political ambitions. But we have actually done the math, and we have read enough history to know what society was really like for the fifteen-or-so centuries that saw Bible literalism reigning supreme and almost unchallenged. Hint: it was not a utopia of brotherly love and people turning the other cheek.

  76. H.K Frauskanger… You equate people of faith with what organized religious institutions have done to pervert and distort. This is a risk in every belief system including secularism and athieism. The superior attitude and condescension I see coming from some commentators here certainly makes you sound parinoid… sorry. Each belief system has more than enough examples of excess and error to discredit them… including secularism. We could spend hours exchanging examples to no profit.

    This nation was founded on freedom of religion and the freedom to have no religion. From your comments it would seem that you feel that people of faith are fortunate they are tolerated because of their past sins. I see Amercia differently; I see it as a place where the people “are in charge” regardless of their faith or lack of faith. You can spend time attacking people and belief-systems and labeling people as your enemies. If you do so it would seem you are guilty of the same excess you attribute to Mr. Ham.

    I know this isn’t a forum to agrue faith but you want to color people of faith as intolerant freaks and dimwits all the while being intolerant and unthoughtful yourself. I just say, step back and listen to yourself. Reverse the labels on your arguements and “see” how you come across. It is intolerant, elitist, parinoid and kind of scary. I don’t want my life hanging in your hands because it sounds like the Salem Witch trials would be back with a vengence only with a different target.

    Relax, someone sees the world differently from you and is inviting other people to see things from his perspective. It’s alright, no one is going to take your rights just don’t steal someone else’s. Let the truth win out. Let the ideas compete, but don’t vilify or you are no better.

    And let me tell you, there is no utopia in this world. People are capable of great evil and when given too much power people of every persuasion tend to do harm. That’s not a comment about any particular faith but of human nature. If you can’t see that, then you truly are blind by choice.

  77. H.K Frauskanger… you also put a lot of words into Mr. Ham’s mouth based on your own conclusions of what he must mean. That doesn’t take great skill or intellect. Set up a straw man and attack him – easy peasie (not sure how to spell that).

    You also try to apply theological concepts of being for or against Christ to the level of exercising power over others through government and power showing that you totally misunderstand what Christ meant. You then attribute those ideas to Mr. Ham because you seem to know what he is thinking. Come on. If you are out to win points in an arguement, fine, but you are being intellectually lazy.

  78. J. Augie charges H.K.”Frauskanger” (‘Fauskanger’ is presumably intended, but orthography is not J. Augie’s strong suit) of attempting

    to apply theological concepts of being for or against Christ to the level of exercising power over others through government and power showing that you totally misunderstand what Christ meant.

    That’s funny, because there are plenty of Christian Dominionists who would say that you, J. Augie, “totally misunderstand what Christ meant.”

    Even ‘funnier’, the Taliban and Al Qaeda would also insist that you, J. Augie, “totally misunderstand what Christ meant.”

    You guys want to argue about theology, fine–knock yourselves out. As long as you leave rational folk–and public education–alone, no problem.

    Believe what you will, it’s your right so to do. But if you hold beliefs that are demonstrably absurd–that the earth is flat, say, or the moon made of green cheese, or that Genesis is a factual account of history–you really can’t expect anything other than incredulous ridicule from rational folk.

    And if your beliefs compel you to publicly tell falsehoods about scientific data–as Ham regularly does in order to aid his efforts to take money off the benighted and the credulous–you are very likely to encounter some well-deserved hostility along with that ridicule.

  79. Tone Troll Number 2 wrote:

    Why does one guy who you riddicule as some kind of dope cause you such consternation? What are you so worried about since you possess such great knowledge about the past?

    Why do ignorant dim-bulb creationist talabanys always beg the question? Always. “What are you afraid of?” Oh, if I had a quarter* for every time I’ve heard that.

    I don’t know, TTN2, why are you so fascinated by what the Kardashian’s ate for breakfast?

    As for old Scambo, just last night I watched him on a stage with US government officials conducting a holy roller revival meeting, praise the lord and pass the ammo! Yes, it was very disturbing to listen to government officials pledge their support for his ministry on the backs of the taxpayers of Kentucky. A “ministry” that consists of a tax exemption certificate and a big house on the hill where old Scambo can survey his empire. Yeah, Tone Troll Number 2, nothing wrong with that, is there? Just good old capitalism and freedom of religion at work! Yee haw!

  80. I would have asked Believer the following:

    Which is greater, the percentage of employees at the National Museum of Natural History that are Christian, or the number of employees at the Creation Museum who are not Christian? I don’t know, either, but I’d be willing to make a wager that a lot of employees in DC would find Ham’s statement about pushing atheism repugnant.

    I would also like to respond to his questions:

    1. I don’t care about Ham’s museum or theme park. That there are people who believe my ancestors lived with triceratops is something I find hilarious. Hilarious.

    2. I’m not afraid of Ham’s message. I, along with millions of christian and atheist Americans, find it disgusting. Also, free speech has nothing to do with this. We are not a government that can coerce Ham into shutting up. Although, my right to say “I wish he would just shut up,” is also protected.

    That should answer your two worthless questions.

  81. Stephen Kennedy

    Mark,
    All of the employees of the creation museum call themselves Christians. In fact not only do they have to be Christians but they have to be the right kind of Christian. Because it is a religious organization it is exempt from U.S. laws against employment discrimination on the basis of religion. All applicants for jobs, or even as volunteers, at the creation museum have to submit statements about when they became Christians, their testimony or witness or whatever the hell they call it and a letter from their pastor affirming the applicant’s Christianity. And as I said it has to be the right kind of Christianity. A Catholic with a letter from his parish priest would never be allowed to work at the creation museum.

    Once hired you have to sign a statement of faith that basically says you will ignore reality if it appears to contradict the mythology of the bible and believe in the biblical myths unquestioningly. That is why the so called credentialed scientists working at AIG are not really scientists at all and their diplomas mean nothing. They gave up their claims to be called scientists when they signed that statement saying they will ignore any scientific evidence that disagrees with the wholly babble.

  82. Well said, Dr. Kennedy, Well said!