AIG: More Evidence of the Great Flood

Those of you who may still have doubts about the tale of Noah and his Ark will surely be convinced by the latest post at the website of the creation scientists at Answers in Genesis (AIG), the creationist ministry of Ken Ham (ol’ Hambo) — the Australian entrepreneur who has become the ayatollah of Appalachia, famed for the infamous, mind-boggling Creation Museum.

AIG’s new essay is Flood Tales from the Canyon. It’s a re-post of something they first presented a year ago, written by two names that are unfamiliar to us. Jeremy D. Lyon and Bill Hoesch. We’re told that Lyon founded the Center for Creation Studies at Southern California Seminary. He currently serves as associate professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Truett-McConnell College. Hoesch earned a BA in geology from the University of Colorado-Boulder and an MS in geology from the Institute for Creation Research. He currently teaches undergraduate science courses at Southern California Seminary.

So it’s the Bill and Jerry show — both teach at a bible colleges, and Bill has an advanced degree from the prestigious Institute for Creation Research. Here are some excerpts, with bold font added by us:

Geology is typically what people think about when studying how Grand Canyon formed. But the region also preserves cultural evidence in Native American flood traditions, which are still being retold.

Wowie — Native American flood traditions! Bill & Jerry say:

The Hualapai — “people of the tall pines” — occupy remote lands in western Grand Canyon where Ponderosa pine, elk, bighorn sheep, and cougar abound. At the foot of Wikahme, or Spirit Mountain, in southernmost Nevada, are ancient pictographs with a flood story interpreted for us in a published account by tribal elder and scholar, Lucille Watahomigie.

A tribal elder — that’s a credible scientific source. Let’s read on:

Prior to this, the story had been recounted only in oral tradition via dance and song. It contains these elements. Rains fell on the earth for 45 days. The rising waters wiped out all peoples with the lone exception of an old man atop Spirit Mountain. The Creator eventually sent a bird to the man with instructions to dig with a ram’s horn into the foot of the mountain to enable the waters to drain. The man obeyed and soon the bird returned a second time with grass in its beak to inform the man that the waters had receded.

Just like the bible story — except this one involves only one old man, no ark, no boatload of animals, no reference to a sinful world, no landing at Mount Ararat, and no rainbow. But it’s close enough. Bill & Jerry continue:

A second pictograph depicts a vessel carrying eight passengers “across the waters,” from whom all the peoples of the earth were descended. It is unclear how the two pictographs are related. Mrs. Watahomigie insists the account came to her by oral tradition from her forefathers and that it borrowed no elements from Christian influences.

Right — no missionary influences at all. Here’s yet another Native American flood story:

The Havasupai — “people of the blue-green waters” — live in western Grand Canyon, along beautiful Havasu Creek. According to their tradition, the medicine man prepared a hollow log for a young girl, animals, and provisions to survive the great flood. The rains came and the log floated on the water many days. The floodwaters covered the whole earth, killing all people. The log eventually came to rest at Grand Canyon, and this young girl became the mother of all peoples.

Amazing coincidence — except that there isn’t any Noah, or his family, or any men at all, no mention of a sinful world, no Mount Ararat, and no rainbow. Otherwise, it’s very close. Moving along:

In an interview, Dianna Uqualla, director of the Havasupai tribal museum, shared the Havasupai belief that Grand Canyon was formed by the receding waters of this great worldwide flood. In fact, other neighboring tribes have similar stories about the forming of Grand Canyon.

That means it must be true! Bill & Jerry present us with their scholarly conclusion:

These Native American stories are part of a growing list of hundreds of ancient flood traditions all over the world that share common elements with the Genesis account. While details vary, these traditions all share elements of the whole earth being flooded and only a few survivors. It appears that cultures around the world have a distant memory of a common event in history, which God’s Word flawlessly records in Genesis 6–8.

Your Curmudgeon is convinced. We assume that you are too, dear reader.

Copyright © 2016. The Sensuous Curmudgeon. All rights reserved.

add to del.icio.usAdd to Blinkslistadd to furlDigg itadd to ma.gnoliaStumble It!add to simpyseed the vineTailRankpost to facebook

. AddThis Social Bookmark Button . Permalink for this article

16 responses to “AIG: More Evidence of the Great Flood

  1. Eric Lipps

    These Native American stories are part of a growing list of hundreds of ancient flood traditions all over the world that share common elements with the Genesis account. While details vary, these traditions all share elements of the whole earth being flooded and only a few survivors. It appears that cultures around the world have a distant memory of a common event in history, which God’s Word flawlessly records in Genesis 6-8.

    I see. So all these references from the traditions of heathen savages (as missionaries would have seen them) are proof of Noah’s flood even though they don’t have much, or in some cases anything, in common with that story except mention of a great flood, but of course only the Babble’s account is “flawlessly true.”

    Never mind that these people don’t look anything like the Semitic tribesmen Noah represented, don’t speak anything resembling Hebrew and are scattered all over the world in places Noah and his descendants would never have seen. And never mind that, in the case of the Native American legend rapturously recited by Messrs. Lyon and Hoesch there’s only one survivor in all the world, so humanity should be long extinct.

    And I’m sure it’s just a coincidence that the overwhelming majority of such tales come from people who live by the seashore or in river valleys known to be prone to catastrophic flooding every few thousand years. .

    One could build a better case that aliens created the human race and gave it the rudiments of culture.

  2. The Native American flood stories either contradict the bible in that some Native Americans survived to pass stories on, or those Native Americans are descended from Noah et al. following the flood and somehow scurried rather quickly to the Americas.

    If the latter, then all DNA studies and dating of Native Americans are wrong!

    But that’s not the case. There are a lot of instances of the same mtDNA haplotypes spanning the dates given for the flood. In my own research I obtained an mtDNA sample dated 5,300 years ago which matches living Native Americans in the same area! No discontinuity about 4,350 years ago and it was not a Middle Eastern mtDNA haplotype showing descent from Noah et al.

    There is also mtDNA from a site in the Northwest US dating over 12,000 years ago which matches living individuals on the west coast, but that haplotype does not match Middle Eastern types.

  3. How would these early Native Americans know about the flood draining the Grand Canyon. Were they there?

  4. Coyote makes the usual generic sciency mistake – the yahoos at the ICR probably don’t know what a haplotype is, and moreover, if they do, they don’t give a rat’s patootee because it doesn’t fit into their story. Regardless, interesting information Coyote!

  5. Ken Phelps

    Would it be safe to assume that by “Native Americans” he does not mean the Lamanites?

  6. Shame on you Coyote thinking well researched science beats out a fairy tale made up by mideast sheep herders!!!! Or as WLC says science is not as factual as the fuzzy feeling in my tummy!!!!

  7. The authors inform us that there are flood stories in other cultures besides Noah, all of which are different. If the bible is true, none of the other stories can be true, since no one from those cultures would have survived to pass on their stories.

    Aside from that, the existence of multiple various flood stories indicates that they are common myths among ancient cultures, and it is perfectly reasonable to conclude that the Hebrews were no different. Most ancient peoples would have experienced floods at some point, so they are a natural backdrop for storytelling.

    Ham should know this, because he has extended the rather short biblical story to include extensive additional material about the design of the ark, the animals carried therein, and so on. I’m waiting for him to give the wives names, and invent backstories for them.

  8. I am not a cattle farmer, but if I am not mistaken, it would be rather difficult to keep 7 bulls from fighting in close quarters. I am just guessing, but I think that the original audience would take the Biblical Deluge story as being a fable. This speculation of mine also accounts for the contradictions in the story – that they were deliberately included to make sure that no one would take it literally. It takes an urban population to make that mistake.

  9. waldteufel

    The charlatans who push this creationist garbage on children from nine to ninety are unmoved by science and reason. They are immune to mockery.

    They must be defeated and pushed aside. I think we should be vigorously discussing and debating how to do this. For starters, we need to keep them away from schools. . . .

  10. Not a scrap of Geology from two (pretend) Geologists. Instead they give us cultural anthropology, a discipline they presumably they know nothing about.
    Cutting edge stuff from AIG.

  11. Dave Luckett

    @ Ed and others:

    The Bible specifically states that nobody but Noah, his sons, and their wives, survived the Flood. Every other living thing “with the breath of life in its nostrils”, died, and specifically all other human beings. No exceptions. Genesis 7:23. No old guys on mountaintops somewhere else in the world, no young girls on floating logs, none of that.

    So either those stories are true, and the Bible is wrong, or they’re NOT TRUE.

    Of course, being fundamentalists, these loons can believe both by turns, as required.

  12. Dave Luckett notes

    these loons can believe both by turns, as required

    Orwell had a term for such mental gymnastics…

  13. So following this reasoning, the survival of the Hualapai people would seem to contradict the infallible Biblical account of Noah’s Ark story, right? This essay actually supports the universality of flood legends among primitive people and the continual gullibility of modern people regarding the teaching of all religions in general. Oh, and I almost forgot, AIG hasn’t a clues as to what the word science actually means. So all in all, I say a job well done by the AIG authors.

  14. It’s interesting also that AiG gives these stories much more credence than the tribal members themselves probably do. Most indian tribes celebrate their culture with their unique stories and oral traditions, and rightly so, but I suspect very few (if any) believe that the events in such tales actually happened. They are part of their culture, not literal history.

    It seems probable that the tales of Genesis were originally told in that light also, as a source of cultural identity / tribal membership. Something changed when they were written down during the babylonian period.

    My understanding is that the torah was written and distributed to ensure that the jewish populations in Babylon, Alexandria and elsewhere would continue to maintain their identity as jews and not become assimilated into their local culture, at least until they could return to Jerusalem. Although some jews did become assimilated, as a whole the strategy obviously worked. I suspect the writers at the time had no idea what consequences their act of transcribing oral traditions and tribal laws would have on subsequent history, particularly the bloodshed that would result. They certainly would not have foreseen the likes of Ham and AiG.

  15. Ken Phelps

    Ah, but what you are forgetting is that fundies lack self-awareness. That is their single, defining characteristic. Others of us might, over the course of the first 10 or 15 years of our lives, develop a growing sense that, odd as it seems, other people think they’re right too. This doesn’t happen to fundies. They are unable to see themselves as others might see them, no matter how self-centered and transparently ridiculous their views are. They are perpetual children emotionally.

  16. I’d be interested in how the creation story of other cultures would fit in to this scheme – like the one that says the world was created by some expulsion of monkey jizz (or something, I don’t mean to insult – but I can’t find it) or the ancient gods that had incest…yeah.