ICR: Why No Human Fossils with Dinosaurs?

This is another example of creation science from the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) — the fountainhead of young-earth creationist wisdom. Their post is titled Where Are All the Human Fossils?

It was written by Brian Thomas. He’s described at the end of his articles as “Science Writer at the Institute for Creation Research.” This is ICR’s biographical information on him. Here are some excerpts, with bold font added by us for emphasis, and occasional Curmudgeonly interjections that look [like this]:

At a recent Institute for Creation Research event, we passed out cards so the audience could submit questions for an upcoming Q&A session. Interestingly, several folks asked the same thing: Why don’t we find human remains in all the vast rock layers from Noah’s Flood? [Wow!] Though it’s a popular question, it carries one big assumption. Once that’s exposed, possible answers become more clear.

What’s the big assumption? He says:

Many assume that dinosaur layers should also contain human fossils.[Yes, they should, if creationism is true.] Not at all. [Huh?] Dinosaur fossil layers contain sea, swamp, and lake plants and animals, and mostly water birds. They have virtually no remains of land-dwellers like dogs, deer, bears, or bunnies.

We previously gave our own creationist answer to this puzzle. Creatures died and were buried in the Flood according to their sinfulness — the simplest creatures dying first, with minimal suffering, and the more complex creatures dying last, to prolong their agony — thus their appearance higher in the geological strata. Let’s find out how Brian handles the problem. He tells us:

Humans live on solid ground, not in swamps—and definitely not in pre-Flood swamps where dinosaurs might treat them as light snacks. The best places to look for fossils of pre-Flood humans would be in deposits that contain land-dwellers like pre-Flood dogs and deer.

But many dinosaurs were land-dwellers. Brian is in trouble here. He continues:

Now we can reconsider the question. In short, three factors hinder the search for pre-Flood human remains.

What would those be? Let’s read on:

First, we are not sure where to look [Hee hee!] Most Flood-friendly geologists have identified Cenozoic rocks as Ice Age layers that formed soon after the Flood. Others have recently reconsidered them to be Flood deposits. So, we haven’t been looking for pre-Flood humans in rock layers we thought were deposited after the Flood. A new generation of Bible-believing fossil experts might do well to scour Cenozoic rocks for pre-Flood human remains.

Okay, reason one is that creationist geologists don’t know what they’re doing. Now for reason two:

Second, ICR geologist Dr. Tim Clarey’s new continent-wide rock layer maps have revealed that many Cenozoic deposits lie offshore since Flood waters washed off of continents and into today’s oceans. It’s hard to dig for fossils in layers trapped beneath the sea. Plus, the violence of Flood runoff waters may have pulverized any human remains they carried.

That’s lame. Now for his third reason:

A third factor is a lack of objective workers. Evolutionary scientists might not admit to a human fossil that’s out of place with their manmade view of history.

We’ll skip his examples. Then he says:

Secular scientists imagine eons of pre-human creatures. Those many resulting bones, if they existed, would have blanketed Earth. Where are they? The few human remains available from Ice Age cave burials or older fossils look like the number we expect from our few ancestors who lived right after the Flood. Thus, we need new scientists without evolutionary bias who trust the God-revealed history in Genesis to search likely spots.

We’re not sure what he’s saying, but it seems as if all fossil-hunters are liars. He finishes with yet another excuse:

With few workers to search, few who know where to search, and the destructive forces of Flood runoff, we should not really expect to have found the remains of pre-Flood people.

So there you are. According to Brian, the fossils exist, but they haven’t been found yet. And while he offers that excuse, he’ll still complain about evolution because of all the “missing links.” It’s another great example of creation science.

Copyright © 2018. The Sensuous Curmudgeon. All rights reserved.

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34 responses to “ICR: Why No Human Fossils with Dinosaurs?

  1. “…. the violence of Flood runoff waters may have pulverized any human remains they carried”.
    I try to visualise the Flood waters grinding human corpses to dust.

  2. Sure, the violence of the Flood pulverized (which means, “ground into dust”) any human remains. But it didn’t break up a mastless, rudderless wooden ship held together with pegs and tar, because God. Sure it did.

  3. “Dinosaur fossil layers contain sea,
    swamp, and lake plants and animals, and
    mostly water birds. They have virtually no
    remains of land-dwellers like dogs, deer,
    bears, or bunnies.”
    —————————
    Completely false. Total fabrication. Lying through their teeth. Zero evidence for these assertions. Tons of evidence contradicting them. Wrong, wronger, wrongest.

  4. Charles Deetz ;)

    JSJ, not sure I’ve seen you here before, welcome. Anyway, I stopped at the comment about water birds. I don’t know the overlap of dinos and water birds, but it sounds fishy. As if the general ‘swamp dino’ presumption wasn’t distracting enough.

  5. “I try to visualise the Flood waters grinding human corpses to dust.”

    While still leaving chicken sized theropods, infant dinosaurs of all stripes, including dinosaur eggs, and even much later shrew sized mammals intact. Strange waters indeed. None of the creationist “experts” has any evidence of their idiotic fantasy claims, so they need to unexplain everything that is well known to make room for their fantasies. Creationism can only exceed among the ignorant.

  6. Derek Freyberg

    I’m having trouble with the post-Flood Ice Age.
    ICR has this infallible, scientifically accurate book that describes the history of the world, written by that world’s Creator, no less; and yet there’s no mention of an ice age.
    Perhaps Creationism in the minds of ICR (and AiG, and the like) means “I can create non-book explanations when my book doesn’t fit the world”.
    And of course we can always do a Hambo and ask “were you there?”

  7. Creationist geologists with doctorates are as rare as hen’s teeth (i.e. a vestigial organ that has outlived its relevance), so I was curious about this “ICR geologist Dr. Tim Clarey”. It turns out, according to his ICR bio page, he doesn’t actually have a doctorate. So why are they calling him “doctor”?

  8. He is also pointing out that qualified people who are friendly to creationism are so few.
    Let us keep this in mind when we are told of the many scientists who are doubters of Darwinism.

  9. Ice Age??? There`s no mention of an Ice Age in the bible. Are creos lying to us.? Again?

  10. There is no mention of an ice age in the Bible.
    I don’t recall anything about fossils, either.
    Why do creationists accept things on the word of darwinists?-

  11. Ah, this stuff is satire-proof. Like Trump. All I can do is quote that idiot-savant Warhol:

    “The best parody of a thing is the thing itself.”

  12. Christine Janis

    It’s difficult to know here if Thomas is really as ignorant of the fossil record, and what we know about dinosaurs, as it appears here, or whether he’s just riding on the assumption of the ignorance of his readers.

    “Dinosaur fossil layers contain sea, swamp, and lake plants and animals, and mostly water birds. They have virtually no remains of land-dwellers like dogs, deer, bears, or bunnies.”

    The notion of dinosaurs being ‘swamp dwellers’ appears to be derived from children’s books from the 1950s (and, even then, it was only giant sauropods that were thought to live in swamps). And, of course, the ‘dinosaur layers’ contain mostly terrestrial plants and animals. (Perhaps he’s confusing dinosaurs with marine reptiles like ichthyosaurs and plesiosaurs: perhaps I’m being overly generous.) It is true, of course, that dinosaurs don’t contain the remains of extant terrestrial mammals. Funny, that. They don’t contain the remains of extant aquatic or marine mammals either.

    The mention of ‘dogs, deer, bears, or bunnies’ is telling: these are Holarctic mammals found with high latitude humans in the past couple of million years (H. sapiens or H. neanderthalensis). Is Brian implying that only these ‘Ice Age’ remains are true humans, and that [not] even the African members of the genus Homo (let alone the australopithecines) are truly human? (Of course those African humans are found in ‘fossil layers’ with known swamp dwellers, i.e. crocodiles.)

    ‘ So, we haven’t been looking for pre-Flood humans in rock layers we thought were deposited after the Flood. A new generation of Bible-believing fossil experts might do well to scour Cenozoic rocks for pre-Flood human remains.’

    This is truly hilarious. Does Brian really believe that the only thing that paleontologists search for is human remains, and that we don’t have a vast and well-known fossil record of the pre-Pliocene Cenozoic that contains nary a human (although we have plenty of remains of non-human primates).

    ‘Secular scientists imagine eons of pre-human creatures. Those many resulting bones, if they existed, would have blanketed Earth. ‘

    Why would they have blanketed Earth? Scientists imagined, and subsequently discovered, eons of pre-kangaroo creatures, but they are confined to Australia. I wonder why.

    ‘—many Cenozoic deposits lie offshore ——- the violence of Flood runoff waters may have pulverized any human remains they carried.’

    Why are we talking about the Cenozoic if the question is human remains found with dinosaurs? There are plenty of human remains in the Cenozoic, just in the last 4 million years or so. Plus, most skeletons are ‘pulverized’, either before fossilization or afterwards. But teeth are harder than bone, and remain undamaged — most of the fossil record of vertebrates consists of teeth, skeletons are rare.

    ‘A third factor is a lack of objective workers. Evolutionary scientists might not admit to a human fossil that’s out of place with their manmade view of history.’

    Now Brian is starting to sound like Carl Werner, who hints in his book ‘The Grand Experiment’ (with an accompanying photo of a mammoth skeleton) that the reason why we don’t find any large mammals (let alone humans) in the ‘dinosaur layers’ is that scientists are hiding them in museums and not allowing the public to see them.

    What a great piece of creationist writing: misunderstanding, outright lies, and conspiracy theories.

  13. Christine Janis

    Whoops, should be “NOT even the African members of the genus Homo’

  14. Karl Goldsmith (@KarlGoldsmith)

    “Most Flood-friendly geologists have identified Cenozoic rocks as Ice Age layers that formed soon after the Flood.” Again with the made up ice age.

  15. Karl Goldsmith (@KarlGoldsmith)

    “We’re not sure what he’s saying, but it seems as if all fossil-hunters are liars.” That creationists don’t do any of the research they claim to do, or we would have human fossils alongside dinosaur fossils.

  16. Our dear SC is helpful: “We previously gave our own creationist answer to this puzzle.”
    This one actually makes more sense for YECers than Brawny Brian’s answer. I’m not sure if that’s a compliment or criticism.

    “Humans live on solid ground, not in swamps.”
    Aha, I suppose 2/3 of the Dutch aren’t human beings then. The swampy delta that is called Holland is most densily populated.

    “Okay, reason one is that creationist geologists don’t know what they’re doing.”
    That obviously is quite a handicap if they apply for a job at Shell etc.

    “we need new scientists without evolutionary bias”
    Given the fact that ICR exists almost half a century some people haven’t done their job properly …..

  17. Karl Goldsmith (@KarlGoldsmith)

    So Dr. Tim Clarey like Snelling worked in oil industry having to use “fake science” and then Tim spent years teaching “fake science” in College before going to ICR so he could do real science.

  18. @JSJ: your list of grammatical comparisons unfortunately is incomplete. Let me help you out: “Wrong, wronger, wrongest,” not even wrong, creationism.

    @Paul D sees a problem: “So why are they calling him “doctor”?”
    I have little doubt he can find some creationist diploma mill outfit that grants him this title.

    @CJ: “It’s difficult to know ….”
    I’d say both – creacrappers like Brawny Brian are well beyond the point where the difference between being ignorant himself and riding on the ignorance of others still matters. Just remember: creacrappers can always sink lower than you and I are capable of imagining.

  19. Dinosaur fossil layers contain sea, swamp, and lake plants and animals, and mostly water birds. They have virtually no remains of land-dwellers like dogs, deer, bears, or bunnies.

    Well, of course they don’t contain fossils of ” dogs, deer, bears, or bunnies,” since none of those animals existed when dinosaurs did. And I’d be surprised if they contained fossils of modern-looking birds.

    So, we haven’t been looking for pre-Flood humans in rock layers we thought were deposited after the Flood. A new generation of Bible-believing fossil experts might do well to scour Cenozoic rocks for pre-Flood human remains.’

    How about Paleozoic rocks? After all, according to creationists (YEC’s, anyway) all the different “kinds” including humans came into existence mere days after the planet itself. Who know? If they keep digging, they might find the long-sought Precambrian rabbit.

  20. In brief, we don’t have the evidence.
    We are not willing or capable of finding the evidence. But we sure good at dreaming up excuses.

  21. If you use something like the Blue Letter Bible website and entire “ice” in the New English Translation, there are four verses that use the term – certainly enough “evidence” that there surely must have been an ice age!

  22. Michael Fugate

    Creationism and conspiracy theories – together again.

  23. Sounds reasonable.
    Don’t find what you’d naturally expect, well…reasons.
    Don’t find “missing link*” you’d expect, NO MISSING LINK, THEREFORE JESUS!!!! HALLEFUC^INGLUJAH!!!!!

    *Yes, I know.

  24. Derek Freyberg

    @Paul D.
    I think you misread Clarey’s bio page – he does have a PhD in geology (Western Michigan University, 1996).
    But I do kind of wonder how “Flood-friendly” he could have been while looking for oil for Chevron: they’re pretty science-oriented (and I don’t mean Hambo’s “origin science” either)

  25. @Derek

    Right on. He was probably working horizons on Landmark or whatever and not a major player or decider. He got caught up in the ’92 layoffs and was considered “non-essential.” My experience in the oil company is that the fundies could be pretty annoying and they got cleared out during layoffs.

  26. @do bill1351

    Don’t write off Clarey too quickly. I know nothing about him personally, but just look at Snelling by way of comparison. He was consulting in Australia to mining companies; no fly-by-night and nothing lightweight about him. When he was talking to the miners he talked 20th century geology, yet all the while he (somehow) believed in a young earth.

    I’m truly stunned at the lunacy of this particular ICR article. But I note that Thomas doesn’t claim that Clarey believes this BS. He is just quoting Clarey’s professional view (justifiable or otherwise) about the location of Cenozoic deposits.

  27. @docbill1351

    Please accept my apologies. I have just read the précis for one of Clarey’s own books “Dinosaurs: Marvels of God’s Design”. Clarey not only believes this BS, he actually wrote the book. Thomas’s article is actually a thinly veiled, unattributed lift from Clarey’s book. They’re all kooks. There’s not a sane one among them.

  28. @tedinoz

    No worries! As lurkers of this site know, if there’s a limb I’ll crawl out on it. Little Stevie Meyers lists his time as a “geophysicist” with Chevron on his CV, but he was only there for something like 18 months. That’s barely long enough to get through their new geoscientist training program. However, from Meyers’ decades of dilettante it’s clear that he never learned much science and working for an oil company is all about what you know, not what you believe.

    Full disclosure, I hired two fundies (difficult to avoid in Oklahoma) but I ran a programming group at the Research Center. They were good, meat-and-potatoes programmers; got the job done, solid code that worked, neat and tidy, but light on the insight. It was my job to come up with the ideas that were so crazy they just might work. We got along well and even had occasional discussions about paleontological discoveries. I would explain, they would laugh. Nobody got hurt.

  29. Maybe I’m going overboard, but I’m going to say that suggesting mental illness does not explain advocacy of creationism or other extremisms. Mental illness is not a universal explanation, no more than are conspriacy theories or intelligent design.

  30. Michael Fugate

    It is interesting on research gate that Clarey lists an adjunct position at The King’s University, Southlake, Texas which has exactly one science course
    NSCI1401 Natural Science and the Bible
    An introduction to Physical Science that includes the scientific disciplines of chemistry, physics, geology, meteorology, and astronomy with attention to the scientific method and is proper application. This course contains lab sessions that further help the student to think critically, formulate a question, do research, and draw reasonable conclusions from their investigation. 4 Semester Hours (3 Hours Lecture, 1 Hour Lab)

  31. Michael Fugate

    If Clarey is teaching this course, then can you imagine how bad it is? The students will go out to be ministers and counselors and this all they learn about modern science?

    If the flood were so violent to pulverize bones, then why would fossils be found where the organisms lived?

  32. I don’t understand. I looked at the undergraduate catalog, and it listed these science courses:
    Biology 4 Science Elective 4
    Chemistry 4 Science Elective 4
    Environmental Science 4 Science Elective 4
    Physics C: Electricity and Magnetism 4 Science Elective 4
    Physics C Mechanics 4 Science Elective 4
    Physics 1: Algebra-Based 4 Science Elective 4
    Physics 2: Algebra-Based 4 Science Elective 4

  33. Michael Fugate

    I got my data here – page 108….

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